Delivering the Systems and Expertise You Need to Confidently Make Great Hiring Decisions
You Can’t Always Hire A-Players?
Sure, there are some experts out there who will tell you that you can always hire A-Players, but I’m not one of them. Considering 54% of all hires are mis-hires (according to a 2000 Fortune Study) we clearly have a problem in America.
The content for discussion today comes from Global Learning Resources CEO Kevin Wheeler. He suggests that great performers tend to emerge over time, rather than appear fully formed at the interview. According to Kevin, there are four ways to improve your hiring and development systems.
1. Don’t look for “A” players, because you don’t really know who they are. Those that you think are the best, the brightest, or the smartest may not be. The problem in looking for the best is that you are always using criteria that are suspect. The fatal flaw inherent in all competency systems is change. What has been successful or what is successful in a particular place may not be in another.
2. Provide development opportunities broadly for everyone and reward and promote those who take advantage of the opportunities. If we believe that talent often emerges where we least expect it, we cannot afford to limit development opportunities only to certain levels or types of employees.
3. Have recruiters aggressively monitor and source internally. Most of the very best talent comes from within and from below. We are all enamored with the outside “guru,” and frequently pass on the person right in front of us who is equipped with the skills, the cultural understanding, and the motivation to excel.
4. Look at selecting people for broad-based competencies. We should be looking to hire people with motivation to learn, with team experience and success, with cultural compatibility, and with a basic technical skill set that can be developed by experiential opportunities and good mentoring. We need to move away from rigorous narrow competency definitions and reliance on experience as an indicator of performance.
Do I disagree with anything that Kevin has shared up to this point?
Nope.
If you’ve read this blog for awhile and have implemented even 10% of what you’ve learned, you SHOULD have an issue with this last statement of his: “A” players are hard to define and impossible to recruit consistently.
Tags: A-Players, hire better, Interview, recruit don't absorb, Recruiting, Topgrading, topgrading interview, topgrading methodology
CIDS Interviews: Fair or Not?
In addition to blogging here I also contribute content to Recruiting Blogs. A slightly modified version of my recent post “How to Prepare for a Topgrading Interview” drew quite a few comments but there was one in particular that I felt deserved some additional attention.
Member Mark Bregman shared his thoughts and I think they are valid concerns. I’ll share my answers here but would welcome comments on this blog, over Twitter or on our Facebook page.
I really believe in the principles of Topgrading, and have cited it along with Brad Smart many times in my own writing, but the candidates I’ve seen subjected to CIDS interviews have NOT had wonderful or even fair experiences. I have three issues with CIDS:
1. It doesn’t apply context. The behaviors analyzed in a CIDS interview can be from 20 years ago, and don’t get asked in a way that aligns with the current goals for the position. I advocate performance objective based questions that elicit the specific skills and experience needed today from the candidate, in the context of the specific job, not in a vacuum.
2. CIDS provides too much ammunition by which to DESELECT a candidate. Not every behavior or lack of behavior from someone’s past is relevant to what is needed today.
3. CIDS interviewers are often inexperienced, and don’t know how to really use the tool to best advantage.
Here are my thoughts in response to Mark:
1. The behaviors analyzed in a CIDS interview may be from 20 years ago but it’s the interviewer’s fault if they allow the discussion to drift into conversations that don’t necessarily align with the current position. On top of that, the basic questions that are used in every position are critical information that you’d want to know about someone – regardless of if the experiences are 20 years old. Example: What was the #1 thing you regret about not accomplishing in that role?
2. At HireBetter this is a discussion that we have a lot. Recommending someone for hire takes courage. It’s nearly always easier for a Hiring Manager or outside consultant suggest that inaction is better than action. Roosevelt nailed it in 1910 when he said [paraphrasing] “It is not the critic that counts. The true credit belongs to the man in the arena.” With that said, if a Hiring Manager has done their homework, they’re clear on what they need someone to do and they conduct a proper CIDS interview, they’re going to be more prepared to make a hiring decision than with any other kind of interview that I’ve seen conducted.
3. It doesn’t take much for someone to learn how to conduct a CIDS interview. However, as I shared in my response to #2, from what I’ve witnessed a poorly conducted CIDS interview is still significantly better than an “on the fly” interview that doesn’t have a structure, purpose or plan.
Bottom line: Mark brings up some good questions and CIDS interviews do have some shortcomings but, in my opinion, there’s not much else out there that will give you a better understanding of if the person you’re interviewing is right for the role you’re looking to fill.
Tags: A-Players, Brad Smart, career history, chris mursau, CIDS, hiring manager, Interview, interview training, Topgrading, topgrading interview, topgrading methodology
How to Prepare for a Topgrading® Interview
I found this interesting: in the past couple of months the top keyword search strings that lead people to this blog were often about preparing for a Topgrading Interview. The irony is that you can’t really “prepare” for a Topgrading interview. Yes, journaling about your career history, reflecting back on the praise you received or the criticism that challenged you, thinking about your Boss and what you liked or disliked about them – these are all good ideas.
According to Brad Smart, the Author of Topgrading, “[The] methods are common sense, very thorough, and they inspire candidates to be totally honest.”
Author’s Note: A couple of months ago I blogged on the dumbest interview questions that people ask and pointed to some of the websites where you can review those questions (and read the canned answers that make candidates sound really sincere).
What’s so different about the Topgrading interview is, from my experience, that it not only inspires candidates to be honest but forces them. My mother taught me that lying is really tough because you have to always remember what all of your previous lies were. As those lies pile up you really end up in a tough place.
That early lesson has proven itself to be very helpful. When I’ve worked with some clients directly and helped them conduct a 4 Hour Interview, I’ve picked up a few things that seem to apply across all industries:
- Executives can easily dupe you in a 30 minute interview
- They can often lie their way through a 1 or 2 hour interview because they’ve likely been on the hot seat before
- In hour 3 it’s fairly easy for the Interviewer to recognize if the Candidate is lying or has a track record of blaming others, not delivering on commitments, etc.
- By hour 4, the Candidate is “naked”. They’re either (a) being honest and feel more trusting of the non-judgemental atmosphere or (b) they’ve lost track of the fabrications they made up 2 hours prior and are wrapped up in a web of lies so large that they’re exhausted from trying to keep up with themselves.
With all this said, the Topgrading Interview is also the fairest and most objective interview I’ve ever conducted or observed. Its structure (Comprehensive, In-Depth, Structured or CIDS) is straightforward, no questions come out of left field (“Why are manhole covers round?”) and it gives the Candidate the chance to brag about themselves as equally as they reveal their mistakes or times of regret.
Wrap Up: If you’re being asked to take part in a Topgrading Interview, go in with a clear conscience and a willingness to show vulnerability. But above all: BE HONEST.
P.S. Just in case you have ever been asked the question “Why are manhole covers round?” and you want to be argumentative, you might use this picture below to build your case. — JD
Tags: A-Players, Brad Smart, career history, hire better, Interview, Topgrading, topgrading interview, topgrading methodology
What Can You Learn From A Terrorist? [Part 2 of 4: Navarro]
After hearing Joe Navarro speak and then reading his book What Every Body is Saying, I decided to seek him out to ask him some pointed questions about what he has learned about non-verbal communication through his 25 years as a counterintelligence special agent with the FBI. This is the second in a four part series that started with Detecting Deception (click here for Part 3 and here for Part 4). For today, I’m going to focus on something that Joe calls: GUILTY KNOWLEDGE.
[JDavis] We now understand that it’s nearly impossible to tell if someone is lying. What then, is the next best alternative?
I learned to look for INDICATORS OF STRESS. If a question causes someone stress or bothers them, dig in to find out why. As you learn to identify these indicators, you’ll realize that not everything has the same weight during questioning.
Here’s an example (using a crime suspect): If I’m questioning them about a case where someone was murdered a machete, I could ask them lots of different questions about a knife, a blade or a sharp object. What I’ve found is that they probably won’t react with the same level of guilty discomfort as if I were to ask them specifically about a machete.
[JDavis] What is the most likely indicator of discomfort that someone would show non-verbally?
For decades I kept seeing a very interesting thing happening during interrogation but this one action never showed up in research. I finally realized that researchers don’t sit in front of terrorists. They sit in front of students who are being asked to deal with made up situations.
What I observed over time was that when people were really under stress or there was insecurity, people would touch their neck. Men do it more robustly and women delicately. By studying it I realized that we rarely touch our necks UNLESS we’re uncomfortable. We so infrequently touch our neck unless there is a specific issue that we feel guilty about.
[JDavis] Could this “guilty discomfort” manifest itself through verbal cues as well?
Absolutely! I call this DIS-POSESSION. Remember, for people with “guilty knowledge”, words have weight. Here’s how it works:
Interviewer (to a suspect): Do you own a Smith & Wesson Handgun?
Suspect: Yes I do.
Interviewer: Where do you keep it?
Suspect: I keep my gun in a locked safe in my bedroom closet.
Interviewer: Were you aware that I’m investigating a murder in your neighborhood in which the murder weapon was a Smith & Wesson Handgun?
Suspect: No, I wasn’t aware of that.
Interviewer: Can you tell me where your gun is right now?
Suspect: I’m not sure where the gun is.
The subtle difference here is that as soon as the gun that the Suspect owns is tied to this murder, and because the Suspect has “guilty knowledge”, you’ll notice that he dis-possessed the weapon – changing it from “my gun” to “the gun”. If that “guilty knowledge” wasn’t present, you would have heard the Suspect continue to take ownership by most likely using the statement, “I’m not sure where my gun is.”
This happens all the time between parents - If a father shows up after work and his wife needs to share that their daughter has spilled juice on his favorite chair, she’ll say, “Guess what YOUR Daughter did?”. By not saying “Our daughter”, she’s dis-possessing herself due to guilty knowledge. The minute you hear distancing, you know something is wrong. It’s NEVER positive. For further clarification, if a mother had something she was proud of she’d likely say, “guess what OUR son did? He won first place!”
One last example of this in real life: Bill Clinton referred to Monica Lewinsky as… “That Woman”
In Part 3 I’ll share Joe’s tips on what he calls “The Most Honest Part Of Our Body.”
For twenty-five years, Joe Navarro was an FBI counterintelligence special agent and supervisor specializing in nonverbal communications. A frequent lecturer, he serves on the adjunct faculty at Saint Leo University and the FBI. You can learn more about Joe through his website or by following him on Twitter.
Tags: Body Language, dis-posession, guilty knowledge, hiring manager, Interview, interview training, Joe Navarro, topgrading interview
Detecting Deception [Part 1 of 4: Navarro]
One of the most powerful and insightful speakers that I’ve had the opportunity to hear in the past decade is Joe Navarro. He’s the author of What Every Body Is Saying (and a lot of other books too) and a 25 year veteran of the FBI as a counterintelligence special agent.
I contacted Joe and asked him if he’d share some of his expertise with you as readers of the HireBetter Blog so that you can be more effective interviewers. He was very generous with his time and the tips he shared are SO GOOD that I’ve decided to make a short 4-part series out of the information (click here for Part 2 and Part 3 and Part 4).
We started our conversation at a high level and that’s what this post will focus on. In the forthcoming blog entries I’ll dig in further around certain actions that a Candidate might take that will give you clues that you can use in your evaluation process. Enjoy!
[JDavis]: There are a lot of studies out there that suggest that Body Language is the most significant aspect of our communication. However, they all seem to say something different. What percentage of what someone is saying is their Body Language versus their Tonality and the actual Words?
The simple answer: no one really knows. Body Language is clearly the most powerful and significant of the 3 you’ve mentioned but here are some examples of how it can differ:
- If you’re on a date and you’re sitting there ‘googley-eyed’ at your new lover, body language can be 98% or even more of what you’re saying
- Political Events, whether debates or press events or even just stump speeches are often scripted and very orchestrated. Even with this, very few people ever remember what someone said during the debate or speech. Yet, if I simply asked you if you remembered “The Wink” most people will immediately remember Sarah Palin.
- If someone you’re talking with is describing something technical or mathematical, body language accounts for very little of what they’re saying.
[JDavis]: Then what proof do you have that Body Language means anything at all?
When we look at studies of blind children talking with other blind children, they still use ALL of the
same body language as people who have the gift of sight. A prime example: they even cover their eyes when they hear something they don’t like yet they’ve never SEEN other people using these behaviors before!
[JDavis]: After all of your years in counterintelligence, can you tell if someone is lying to you?
With all of the TV Shows and Police Movies that are out there today, you’d think it was possible, right? In my experience NO, I can’t tell if someone is lying or not. In fact, in 1986 Paul Ekman went out and tried to figure out if people really could “Detect Liars”. He found that the very best people were only as good as a coin flip.
To follow that up, in 2004 Maureen O’Sullivan completed an exhaustive study by looking at 14,000 Police Officers, Detectives, Judges, Psychologists (all people who you’d think, because of their training, that they would be better than average at this skill).
The results? Only 33 people (0.2%) were good enough at detecting someone who was lying to receive a grade of “above random chance” (meaning they could do it at least 66% of the time).
Police Officers and others in Law Enforcement often think that they’re expert at detecting deception. What we learned was that the people they were observing or questioning were nervous from being interrogated and the stress that they were experiencing resulted in “tells” that the police officers were interpreting as deception.
In upcoming posts I’ll share Joe’s tips on how you can keep your eyes open for “tells”, what the actions of the feet, hands, face and shoulders mean and what you should do if the countenance of a Candidate suddenly changes. I look forward to sharing these with you and hearing your thoughts.
For twenty-five years, Joe Navarro was an FBI counterintelligence special agent and supervisor specializing in nonverbal communications. A frequent lecturer, he serves on the adjunct faculty at Saint Leo University and the FBI. You can learn more about Joe through his website or by following him on Twitter.
Tags: Body Language, hiring manager, Interview, interview training, Joe Navarro, topgrading interview
An Open Letter to The Staffing Advisor
I’ve watched a dialogue occur over the last couple of weeks between Brad Smart, the Author of Topgrading, and Bob Corlett who owns a recruiting firm in Washington DC and refers to himself as The Staffing Advisor for his Blog.
I’m genuinely concerned that by responding to the initial post of Mr. Corlett’s called, “What Exactly is a Top Performer?” Dr. Smart provided some credibility to what was written and provided an opportunity for this blog post to get some notoriety that it didn’t deserve. After reading Mr. Corlett’s rebuttal I simply can’t stay quiet.
Disclaimer: Topgrading is not a novel. Topgrading is not an easy read. Topgrading is not a page-turner. Honestly, Topgrading is about as dry as a piece of burnt toast without butter. With that being said, it’s still one of the best business books ever written.
Before I begin, I’m going to take a small tangent. The book Freakonomics sold more than 3 million copies when it was released 4 years ago. Buried within those pages was a chapter about the imperfection of the commission model for Realtors. It closely assessed the value of a Realtor’s contribution to the home selling process and found, in short, “the commission you pay your Realtor is in essence a big fat tip”.
I’ll complete my thoughts on why I’ve included this random snippet from Steven Levitt in my conclusion but I wanted to make sure I got that in on the front end to get you thinking.
On to the Open Letter…
I’d like to point out that I’m going to be jumping back and forth between both of Mr. Corlett’s posts on Topgrading (the second being his rebuttal) and his website. I’ll lead in with a direct quote as a precursor to that section to make it easy to follow.
Part 1
“I freely admit that I gave up and only made it halfway through [Topgrading] (worst beach read ever).”
“I found nothing that would help my clients make better hires, short of implementing a massive, formal, top heavy initiative to learn how to conduct a Topgrading interview. And that is simply not practical when you are hiring only one or two of each kind of person.”
I’ve grouped these quotes together to try to point out a very significant element of my counter to Mr. Corlett. If you’re [Bob Corlett] positioning yourself as an expert in the world of “Results Based Hiring” and you’re choosing to bash your “competition” in a very public forum, might it make sense to actually read the entire book before making blanket judgments and heavy-handed criticisms of a process and methodology that is proven to be wildly successful when implemented properly? You’ve lambasted every CEO who shares with you that they want to hire A-Players through Topgrading after admitting that you personally have an inability to finish the foremost book on the topic. Is this at all indicative of how you screen candidates whom you are considering presenting to your clients – that is, seeing a resume that is more than a page long, making a judgment after reading their address and then choosing to wholeheartedly endorse or count an applicant out?
Here’s the thing: if you can’t find a single item in this book to help your clients make better hires I truly doubt that you even read half of it. My guess is, you got to page 63, read the section about Search Firms and Brad’s suggestions on due diligence, and stopped.
Here are some examples of things that we have implemented and have helped our clients implement as well that we learned from inside the pages of Topgrading:
1. Take the time to build Scorecards. When we know what we’re looking for and then we can show the new hire what we screened them on and what we expect of them, the likelihood of their success (in our experience) improves exponentially. Interestingly enough, Mr. Corlett, you even mention this exact idea later in your blog when you said, “Here is a strategy that will dramatically improve both your results and the quality of your life: set performance goals [and] manage your people against the results.”* My guess is that you weren’t able to get far enough into the book to read that part.
2. TORC (threat of reference checks). We always check references but not the ones that our candidates are interested in giving us. We require and only talk to previous managers and we don’t let candidates advance in the process until that is finished. Geoff Smart, Brad’s son, suggests that about 25% of the information you learn about a candidate is obtained during reference checks. I think he’s right on.
3. Create a Virtual Bench. Jack Daly, an esteemed Public Speaker and former CEO is famous for saying, “It’s called RECRUITING, not ABSORBING”. We’ve got a list of people that we’re always recruiting and talking to in the event we need to hire them due to growth or turnover at HireBetter. Our clients do too!
Part 2
“In a job description you need to nail down exactly what you are looking for.”
“There is no universal set of attributes. It depends on the job.” “Most companies need a diverse mix of skills and work styles, but all with a common shared set of values.”
“Small organizations need to think hard, move fast, and make the best decisions possible with imperfect information.”
Really, I love Jack Daly. I bring him up again because I got to hear him recently and so much of it rang true. One of his favorite stories is about VISION and PLANNING. The story goes something like this:
Jack walked out of his house the other day and saw his neighbor filling his car with luggage. He was really cramming it in; filled up the trunk and then the back seat too.
Jack called out to him, “Hey, where you headed?”
“East!” his neighbor replied.
“How long you think it’s going to take you?” Jack countered.
“Quite a while, not sure really.” his neighbor shouted back.
“How much money you gonna need to get there?”
“Beats me, just hope I don’t run out!” said the neighbor.
I shared this story because I think that the next-door neighbor is a lot more like most small businesses than you could possibly imagine. Simply asking a hiring manager to write a job description when they have no experience doing it and hoping that they can “nail down exactly what they are looking for” is a lot tougher than it appears on the surface. Believing that your clients need to think hard and move fast while making decisions based on imperfect information as it relates to their hiring decisions is very, very dangerous. Not only does it adversely affect your ability to screen for the right kinds of people, it leaves your clients open to hiring based on “gut feel” and emotion instead of reality and strategy.
No, Topgrading is NOT easy. Neither is being an A-Player.
Part 3
“We’ll continue…developing faster, less expensive, less cumbersome ways to help our clients consistently hire people who will drive business results”.
There was a time when we thought about touting our speed to hire or cost per hire at HireBetter. Before we learned about Topgrading we were proud of our speed. Today, the focus isn’t on speed or cost at all. Rather, we focus on helping organizations change their methodology and expectations around hiring. We know that Topgrading has been effective when (1) our clients can hire the first or second person they interview – no matter what the role because the hiring managers know what they are looking for and (2) the employees perform as expected.
When Business Owners or Hiring Managers share with me that Topgrading is or was too hard it is almost always indicative of them being ill-prepared by not knowing what they actually want to hire or too reactionary in their hiring process (e.g. only thinking about new hires when someone leaves). As previously mentioned, these companies are simply absorbing new people, not recruiting them.
Part 4
“As someone who runs a search firm, I am also cognizant of the candidate perspective, which is generally not favorable toward Topgrading.”
Dave Kurlan, Founder and CEO of the Objective Management Group, has come up with the five major challenges that salespeople face and must overcome before they can be successful in sales.
The most significant of these challenges is something that he calls a “Need for Approval”. He describes it as, “Salespeople who have a high need for approval will avoid saying or doing the things which, in their mind, would change how the prospect feels about them. This includes asking tough questions, legitimate confrontation and the potential inability to handle rejection.”
At American Workforce we’ve actually had to screen out the Need for Approval from the people on our team who conduct interviews. Why? Our interviewers need to be able to interview with the clear understanding that it’s not their responsibility to make the candidates like them. Candidates don’t hire us – companies do. If the candidates can’t handle a company doing its due diligence and lose their temper or get easily frustrated, what does that say about how they will react under pressure in front of a client six months from now as an employee? Conducting Topgrading interviews takes focus and guts. Focus to stick with the plan and the guts to be able to ask the tough questions and not back off when someone gives a weak answer to a question because they either have something to hide or they’re too lazy to go into greater detail.
Conclusion
As promised, I want to finish my thought on why I included a whole paragraph about the commission structure of Realtors in the beginning of this Letter. When he really dug into it, Levitt found that Realtors aren’t really acting in the best interest of their clients. You can pretty easily figure out why when you consider the following:
-When they are selling a house their only incentive is speed, not getting the best price. They’re going to receive 3% of the sale price. To encourage a homeowner to reduce the cost of their home from $200,000 to $180,000 results in a net loss of only $600 to the realtor but they pick up a check for $5,400. The homeowner loses 10% of their value. If they [the Realtor] turn down a lowball offer and really stand up for the seller of the house, they risk not getting paid at all.
-When they are helping to buy a house, every dollar that they negotiate in savings for a buyer results in them making LESS money.
Here’s why I think this is so applicable to why nearly every recruiting company in America is denunciatory of Topgrading:
-If a company is paying a recruiter a percentage of the first year’s salary (akin to a Realtor receiving a percentage of the sale price), the ONLY incentive that recruiter has is to get someone hired quickly so they can avoid expending more than the minimum amount of effort. They are NOT incentivized to:
- ask tough questions
- conduct reference checks with past managers
- point out red flags on a resume or a career history form
-If a company is paying a recruiter to help negotiate compensation with a prospective candidate, every dollar they help the company save is costing them part of their commission.
Your recruiters should be partners with your company. Because they are truly incentivized against doing so, why should we expect any traditional recruiting firm, and especially ones like Staffing Advisors, to ever embrace the tenets of Topgrading?
Finally, Topgrading isn’t the ONLY way of recruiting and it can’t be implemented as an initiative from HR. It must be adopted wholeheartedly and with the full endorsement of every Executive inside a company. When this happens and it is implemented properly and executed on with precision, its results are staggering – no matter the size of the company.
*Geoff Smart & Randy Street released a little more user-friendly book entitled WHO in 2008. The quick and dirty version of their scorecard framework can be found on page 44.
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