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Because of the generosity of Joe Navarro, a man who spent 25 years as a counterintelligence special agent, I’ve had the opportunity to share a lot of research and guidance about nonverbal and verbal communication with you over the last few weeks. To recap:
- Part 1: Not even those who are considered “experts” in interrogation can detect deception.
- Part 2: Guilty Knowledge manifests itself in a couple of significant ways including neck-rubbing and dis-possession
- Part 3: Indicators of Stress through nonverbal communication are the result of the Limbic Brain (or the ‘honest brain’) orchestrating behavior that relates to emotions. This is manifested most often through the feet and shoulders.
For the final installment in this Four Part Series my hope is that you’ll walk away with the most takeaway value of all. I believe that even if you haven’t read Joe’s book What Every Body is Saying you’ll be a better Interviewer and Leader after reading what he had to say.
[JDavis] Let’s break it down to basics – What are the Top 2 or 3 Nonverbal Displays that I should look for to make me a better Interviewer?
In all of the ones I’m going to share, the common theme is a sudden a change in the countenance of the person. Watch for signs that would indicate that they were comfortable and now they seem somewhat uncomfortable without any explanation. That indicates that something is bothering them (maybe your question or maybe another factor like gas from their lunch).
- I look for things like compressed lips, touching the neck, distancing behavior (pushing away) to indicate that there may be something wrong. When it comes to stress, nothing is more universal than disappearing lips. When someone presses their lips together it is as if the limbic brain is telling them to ‘shut down and don’t allow anything into the body’.
- This one is subtler: The person may “blade” their body away (called ventral denial). If they’ve been facing you and then they turn to not have their front or “belly side” pointed at you. Our ventral (front) side, where our eyes, mouth, chest, breasts, genitals, etc are located, is very sensitive to things that we like and dislike. It’s also the most vulnerable side of the body so the limbic brain has an inherent need to protect it from the things that hurt or bother us.
- They start to use objects (a woman could grab a purse and put it on her lap and use it as a barrier). A man might pick up a laptop and put it on their legs to be a barrier to protect themselves. When you witness people protecting their torsos in real time you can use it as an accurate indicator of discomfort on their part.
[JDavis] We’ve spent a lot of time talking about indicators of stress or guilt. Is there anything that a Candidate might do to show that they’re confident in answer?
The simplest guide I’ve seen that stretches across all cultures globally is the HANDS. Watch for whether they affirm statements PALM DOWN or PALM UP. Palm down with the fingers spread is positive and affirmative. PALM UP with fingers together they lack confidence (over 99% of the world’s population behaves this way).
[JDavis] What if someone unexpectedly moves their hands off the table and places them on their lap or where I can’t see them?
If someone withdraws their hands from the table it’s not enough of an indicator. That’s about as common as blinking their eyes. To simply attach one simple behavior like that just isn’t enough without looking at other body queues.
[JDavis] You’ve emphasize repeatedly in your books, your speeches and even this conversation that trying to read nonverbal behaviors can be more dangerous than it is beneficial to someone without formal training. Why is that?
When people first start looking into nonverbal communication it’s very similar to a young child learning how to read. It’s linear: left to right (i.e. Nose, Lips, Shoulders, Hands). The risk here is that many times the isolated behaviors aren’t significant enough without understanding what the whole body is doing.
At the start of my career I spent so much time looking at the face because we learned that even newborns are expressing themselves nonverbally through their facial expressions at only 3 days old. Today, I can see the whole body at once. That’s my parting shot to anyone who is going to use what they’ve learned from these posts: Relax, try to look at the whole body and don’t beat yourself up trying to look for every little queue.
For twenty-five years, Joe Navarro was an FBI counterintelligence special agent and supervisor specializing in nonverbal communications. A frequent lecturer, he serves on the adjunct faculty at Saint Leo University and the FBI. You can learn more about Joe through his website or by following him on Twitter.
Tags: Body Language, hire better, hiring manager, Interview, interview training, Joe Navarro, talent acquisition
The Most Honest Part of Your Body [Part 3 of 4: Navarro]
Joe Navarro’s career as a counterintelligence special agent for the FBI made him one of the most uniquely qualified experts on nonverbal communication. When you spend 25 years interrogating terrorists and criminals you’re bound to pick up on a few things.
In Chapter 1 of this 4 Part blog series he shared that even the “experts” in law enforcement can’t accurately tell if someone is deceiving you or lying to you. The 2nd Chapter focused on the significance of dis-possession: how it’s NEVER a good thing when someone suddenly stops claiming ownership for something (my gun vs. the gun).
As my interview with Joe progressed we started talking about specific nonverbal behaviors and actions that someone might exhibit that would give you a huge clue that they’re uncomfortable and you should dig in further. It’s important to point out that this also ties in nicely with what Chris Mursau shared a few weeks ago about the significance of self-awareness and why a Candidate who answers a question about their weaknesses or career mistakes with, “You know…I can’t think of any.”
[JDavis] Earlier in our conversation you suggested that it’s fairly easy to pick up on INDICATORS OF STRESS. We discussed the weight that certain words can have (a knife or blade vs. a machete) and that if someone knows how to look for these key indicators they should dig in further. What’s an example of an INDICATOR OF STRESS?
In my experience, the most honest part of anyone’s body is their feet. If you watch someone who’s on the phone, even if you can’t hear what the dialogue is, their feet will tell the story. When a conversation is going well, their feet will defy gravity. Just like tapping your feet to the beat of a song you like, our feet and legs move up and down based on whether something is positive or not. Interestingly, gravity-defying behaviors rarely show up in people who are suffering from clinical depression. It’s because the body reflects precisely the emotional state of an individual – even if their mouth is saying something different.
[JDavis] Is there anything really specific that might happen to the feet and legs during an interview or a conversation that an amateur could look for to help them detect stress?
Yes. I call it “Distancing”. Most of the research that has been done on nonverbal displays of discomfort or guilt seemed to concentrate on the face. One thing I found was that people with guilty knowledge or discomfort (stress) distance themselves with their feet. If you bring up a subject they don’t like they’ll place their feet in the “starter’s position” because they literally want to run away and not be there.
[JDavis] I can see it being a bit awkward as an interviewer to constantly be looking under the table at someone’s feet when we’re supposed to be talking with them and acting like we’re paying attention. What are some examples of nonverbal behavior above the table that an interviewer might notice?
To answer this question it’s important to explain how the brain works first. In nonverbal communication, the limbic brain is where the action is because it’s the brain’s emotional center. From here, the signals that go out that orchestrate our behaviors as they relate to our emotions. It’s considered the “honest brain” because many of the behavioral reactions that are manifested through our feet, torso, arms, hands and faces occur without thought and, unlike our words, they are genuine.
With that said, we use our shoulders all the time. If you get asked, “do you care where we eat?”, a quick shrug would be representative of a low confidence display that shows that you don’t truly care.
In a more serious setting, if you ask someone, “Will this project be done by July?” and they answer by having ONE shoulder rise up to their ear, you can deduce that the person who is answering lacks confidence. Having one shoulder come up is a subconscious way of that person demonstrating that they have some internal doubt or internal dialogue that doesn’t support the verbal answer that they are giving you. The opposite is also true: when we answer something with confidence, our shoulders are down and squared.
In the final installment of this 4 Part Series I’ll share Joe’s Top nonverbal actions that represent a change in countenance of someone you’re interviewing.
For twenty-five years, Joe Navarro was an FBI counterintelligence special agent and supervisor specializing in nonverbal communications. A frequent lecturer, he serves on the adjunct faculty at Saint Leo University and the FBI. You can learn more about Joe through his website or by following him on Twitter.
Tags: Body Language, chris mursau, Interview, Joe Navarro
What Can You Learn From A Terrorist? [Part 2 of 4: Navarro]
After hearing Joe Navarro speak and then reading his book What Every Body is Saying, I decided to seek him out to ask him some pointed questions about what he has learned about non-verbal communication through his 25 years as a counterintelligence special agent with the FBI. This is the second in a four part series that started with Detecting Deception (click here for Part 3 and here for Part 4). For today, I’m going to focus on something that Joe calls: GUILTY KNOWLEDGE.
[JDavis] We now understand that it’s nearly impossible to tell if someone is lying. What then, is the next best alternative?
I learned to look for INDICATORS OF STRESS. If a question causes someone stress or bothers them, dig in to find out why. As you learn to identify these indicators, you’ll realize that not everything has the same weight during questioning.
Here’s an example (using a crime suspect): If I’m questioning them about a case where someone was murdered a machete, I could ask them lots of different questions about a knife, a blade or a sharp object. What I’ve found is that they probably won’t react with the same level of guilty discomfort as if I were to ask them specifically about a machete.
[JDavis] What is the most likely indicator of discomfort that someone would show non-verbally?
For decades I kept seeing a very interesting thing happening during interrogation but this one action never showed up in research. I finally realized that researchers don’t sit in front of terrorists. They sit in front of students who are being asked to deal with made up situations.
What I observed over time was that when people were really under stress or there was insecurity, people would touch their neck. Men do it more robustly and women delicately. By studying it I realized that we rarely touch our necks UNLESS we’re uncomfortable. We so infrequently touch our neck unless there is a specific issue that we feel guilty about.
[JDavis] Could this “guilty discomfort” manifest itself through verbal cues as well?
Absolutely! I call this DIS-POSESSION. Remember, for people with “guilty knowledge”, words have weight. Here’s how it works:
Interviewer (to a suspect): Do you own a Smith & Wesson Handgun?
Suspect: Yes I do.
Interviewer: Where do you keep it?
Suspect: I keep my gun in a locked safe in my bedroom closet.
Interviewer: Were you aware that I’m investigating a murder in your neighborhood in which the murder weapon was a Smith & Wesson Handgun?
Suspect: No, I wasn’t aware of that.
Interviewer: Can you tell me where your gun is right now?
Suspect: I’m not sure where the gun is.
The subtle difference here is that as soon as the gun that the Suspect owns is tied to this murder, and because the Suspect has “guilty knowledge”, you’ll notice that he dis-possessed the weapon – changing it from “my gun” to “the gun”. If that “guilty knowledge” wasn’t present, you would have heard the Suspect continue to take ownership by most likely using the statement, “I’m not sure where my gun is.”
This happens all the time between parents - If a father shows up after work and his wife needs to share that their daughter has spilled juice on his favorite chair, she’ll say, “Guess what YOUR Daughter did?”. By not saying “Our daughter”, she’s dis-possessing herself due to guilty knowledge. The minute you hear distancing, you know something is wrong. It’s NEVER positive. For further clarification, if a mother had something she was proud of she’d likely say, “guess what OUR son did? He won first place!”
One last example of this in real life: Bill Clinton referred to Monica Lewinsky as… “That Woman”
In Part 3 I’ll share Joe’s tips on what he calls “The Most Honest Part Of Our Body.”
For twenty-five years, Joe Navarro was an FBI counterintelligence special agent and supervisor specializing in nonverbal communications. A frequent lecturer, he serves on the adjunct faculty at Saint Leo University and the FBI. You can learn more about Joe through his website or by following him on Twitter.
Tags: Body Language, dis-posession, guilty knowledge, hiring manager, Interview, interview training, Joe Navarro, topgrading interview
Detecting Deception [Part 1 of 4: Navarro]
One of the most powerful and insightful speakers that I’ve had the opportunity to hear in the past decade is Joe Navarro. He’s the author of What Every Body Is Saying (and a lot of other books too) and a 25 year veteran of the FBI as a counterintelligence special agent.
I contacted Joe and asked him if he’d share some of his expertise with you as readers of the HireBetter Blog so that you can be more effective interviewers. He was very generous with his time and the tips he shared are SO GOOD that I’ve decided to make a short 4-part series out of the information (click here for Part 2 and Part 3 and Part 4).
We started our conversation at a high level and that’s what this post will focus on. In the forthcoming blog entries I’ll dig in further around certain actions that a Candidate might take that will give you clues that you can use in your evaluation process. Enjoy!
[JDavis]: There are a lot of studies out there that suggest that Body Language is the most significant aspect of our communication. However, they all seem to say something different. What percentage of what someone is saying is their Body Language versus their Tonality and the actual Words?
The simple answer: no one really knows. Body Language is clearly the most powerful and significant of the 3 you’ve mentioned but here are some examples of how it can differ:
- If you’re on a date and you’re sitting there ‘googley-eyed’ at your new lover, body language can be 98% or even more of what you’re saying
- Political Events, whether debates or press events or even just stump speeches are often scripted and very orchestrated. Even with this, very few people ever remember what someone said during the debate or speech. Yet, if I simply asked you if you remembered “The Wink” most people will immediately remember Sarah Palin.
- If someone you’re talking with is describing something technical or mathematical, body language accounts for very little of what they’re saying.
[JDavis]: Then what proof do you have that Body Language means anything at all?
When we look at studies of blind children talking with other blind children, they still use ALL of the
same body language as people who have the gift of sight. A prime example: they even cover their eyes when they hear something they don’t like yet they’ve never SEEN other people using these behaviors before!
[JDavis]: After all of your years in counterintelligence, can you tell if someone is lying to you?
With all of the TV Shows and Police Movies that are out there today, you’d think it was possible, right? In my experience NO, I can’t tell if someone is lying or not. In fact, in 1986 Paul Ekman went out and tried to figure out if people really could “Detect Liars”. He found that the very best people were only as good as a coin flip.
To follow that up, in 2004 Maureen O’Sullivan completed an exhaustive study by looking at 14,000 Police Officers, Detectives, Judges, Psychologists (all people who you’d think, because of their training, that they would be better than average at this skill).
The results? Only 33 people (0.2%) were good enough at detecting someone who was lying to receive a grade of “above random chance” (meaning they could do it at least 66% of the time).
Police Officers and others in Law Enforcement often think that they’re expert at detecting deception. What we learned was that the people they were observing or questioning were nervous from being interrogated and the stress that they were experiencing resulted in “tells” that the police officers were interpreting as deception.
In upcoming posts I’ll share Joe’s tips on how you can keep your eyes open for “tells”, what the actions of the feet, hands, face and shoulders mean and what you should do if the countenance of a Candidate suddenly changes. I look forward to sharing these with you and hearing your thoughts.
For twenty-five years, Joe Navarro was an FBI counterintelligence special agent and supervisor specializing in nonverbal communications. A frequent lecturer, he serves on the adjunct faculty at Saint Leo University and the FBI. You can learn more about Joe through his website or by following him on Twitter.
Tags: Body Language, hiring manager, Interview, interview training, Joe Navarro, topgrading interview